>> i think -- well, i think we should, one -- first of all, we have to pay down the debt he ran up. we're spending $1 trillion more each year, the federal government -- we, the federal government is spending $1 trillion more each year than when obama walked into office. it's that overspending we need to bring down. raising taxes doesn't solve the overspending problem. it feeds it. and, again, we have been through this lucy and the football thing in '82, in '90. we didn't take the advice of the tax increase last year, and we got spending restraint for the debt ceiling. remember, the republican house has a tremendous power over the debt ceiling. so all this stuff about how we have to bend to the emperor's will isn't true. >> all right. grover norquist, thanks very much. we appreciate your taking the time tonight. let's bring in james carville and reihan salam. good to see you. grover norquist is not bending. not yet. >> well, president obama, or as mr. norquist refers to him, obama -- president obama has done something mr. norquist has never done in his life and that's get people to v